We must see work as play.
In this episode of How People Work, Jordan and Jason explore the ways to think differently about work, incorporating happiness and play. The hosts start by talking about their childhood aspirations and how most kids want to play games as their career.
The conversation between Jason and Jordan revolves around the complexity of life as one grows older and the need for rules to guide one’s actions. They discuss how children have a script to follow, and boundaries are well defined. However, as one grows older, the rules become less defined, and one may not know what is expected of them. There are unwritten rules in work culture that are confusing, and people may not know how to navigate them. They suggest that it is essential to have a mutual aim and agreed-upon rules to play by, which makes the game of work fun.
Scrupulous — 24:59 ✅
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How many hours and years of our lives do we spend on work? For nearly all of us, we spend 30 plus years and one third of our days in our vocation, more time perhaps, than we spend at rest or at play. But this isn’t a problem. Why? Because work is good. Work needs to be integrated deeply into our lives and must be in line with our most important goals and values. And if it is, we have a far more complete and fulfilling life experience. Welcome to the How People Work podcast, where we explore the intersection of how humans think and act and how they apply themselves to their work. When you understand both of these things, you’ll be equipped to be insightful, compassionate, and compelling leaders. All right. Welcome back to How People Work. I’m Jordan Peace. This is Jason Murray joining me as usual, your co- host today. Thanks for listening in. Today, we’re going to talk about — shocker. We’re going to talk about work again, but we’re going to talk about work as play. We’re going to talk about a positive vision of work and how work can be enjoyable, how work can be fun.
Going to try to, anyways.
I say, we’re going to try to figure this out. This is not a topic that we’ve written blogs about, written books about, figured all the way out altogether, but it’s something that we’re interested in and something that we see as kind of key to figuring out how to see work as a good thing, which is an argument that we’ve made before. And how do we go about enjoying that? How do we go about seeing work as play in the same way that we as fathers see our children play? And that play turns into work, and that work turns into play, and they kind of oscillate back and forth. So welcome back to the podcast. I think we probably want to kick off, Jason, if you want to give us a little recap of last week and sort of transition us into this week and this idea, this topic that we’re going to talk about.
Sure. Well, in the last episode, we were talking about happiness, and we’ve spent a couple episodes talking about that from a few different vantage points, but specifically last week, kind of the benefits of happiness to our work and all the research around how that impacts positively the individual’s experience of work, the benefits to the organization in terms of productivity, performance, et cetera, et cetera. And I think this topic in particular is interesting. And I’ll say we’re talking about this right before the episode. We haven’t figured this all out ourselves. And so I think through this conversation, exploring some of the ways that we can sort of think differently about the notion of work. And so happiness being something that seems to be catching on a little bit more. People are paying attention to it and thinking about it as it pertains to work. And so play similarly maybe isn’t- work as play, maybe isn’t thought of as terms that go together very often or very well. But I think there’s relevancy there, especially as we think about, well, how do we kind of rebuild a paradigm for work that’s more positive and gives us something to aspire to, I suppose. So I thought it would be fun to start with a question around what did you want to be when you grew up? So I actually know a lot of stuff about you, but I don’t think I know the answer to this question.
So I wanted to be some combination of John Smoltz and Chipper Jones. Okay. So any Braves fans, Atlanta Braves fans listening and would immediately know those names. Many baseball fans would probably know those as well, because they’re two Hall of Famers.
So third base and pitcher.
Yeah, third, well, he was a shortstop before he was third base man.
That’s true. Before they moved him over.
Spent some time in left field when he still had the athleticism to do that, but yeah. Yeah, Chipper and Smoltz. Smoltz probably be being my number one top athlete that I’ve ever watched. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was unsurprisingly, right, the idea of playing a game for work, playing a game for a career, being on that stage and wearing that uniform and having teammates and pursuing a championship, and just the pomp and circumstance around that as a child. And watching these guys for me, literally daily, I mean, we had the game one every day, right from April until September or October if they were in the playoffs, which they often were when I was a kid. It just seemed like, what else would you do with your life? Why would you do anything else besides play baseball?
Jason (05:01):Yeah, the boys of Summer.
Jordan (05:03):Yeah exactly. Exactly. So that was my, what about you, Jason?
Jason (05:06):So that was it. Baseball. Baseball, yeah. Yeah. Very singular.
Jordan (05:10):How about that?
Jason (05:10):Great. What was it about John Smoltz in particular?
Man, I feel like I could always get a good read on John Smoltz, like even as a kid. Yeah. I feel like I could read his emotion and he seemed kind of what I feel like now. He seemed a guy that he had the talent and he had -
Jason (05:34):An all star with a lot of money.
No, no, no, no, no. Not that piece. Not that piece. No I’m talking about a young John Smoltz, right. But he had the talent, he had the ability, and he had the aggression. He’s like, I’m going to do this. I’m going to dominate these guys. I’m going to strike people out. I’m going to make ‘em ground in double plays, et cetera. But I always sensed a little fear behind his eyes. I always sensed a little, you’re not quite sure you can do this, are you, John? And I don’t know. I don’t know John Smoltz personally. Yeah. I have no idea if he felt that. That was always my read on him. And I’ve always felt the same way. I’ve always felt a natural sense of confidence that, sure, I can go out and do this, but when I actually get out there on the field or I get out there to record a podcast, behind my eyes is a little bit of just like, ah, can I really?
That feels like a good trait, and that seems insightful to me. Because I mean, do you really trust somebody that has seemingly a hundred percent pure confidence? Yeah, because I don’t, I feel like somebody that appears that way is just BS. Doesn’t everyone have a little fear behind them, even if they’re really good?
Jordan (06:48):I hope they do. Yeah. I think when there’s nothing there and there’s just complete blind confidence, the word sociopath comes to mind. Do you really?
Yeah, right. It’s a little worrisome. But anyway, I couldn’t have described any of that as a seven year old boy watching John Smoltz in the playoffs in the early nineties. But yeah, I always was a huge fan of his.
Yeah. So for me, I had three main ones growing up. Growing up a military kid around Marines in particular. My dad was a Marine. I always wanted to be a fighter pilot. And so some of that was going to air shows and stuff when I was a kid. So I saw the Blue Angels a whole bunch of times. I just loved that stuff. I thought it was super cool. And then Top Gun obviously was big when we were kids. And so all of that was just like, man, being a fighter pilot would be so cool. And I always feel a little bad that maybe I should’ve been one, because I have great eyesight.
Jordan (08:00):You have a ridiculous eyesight.
Jason (08:02):So many people are disqualified.
Jordan (08:03):People listening to the podcast, don’t understand what it’s like to be on a Zoom call with you when you’re sharing your screen and you are using eight point font.
Everyone can see this, right?
Jordan (08:12):No one else on the call can read what you could read. You’re like, you guys seeing this ok? And we’re like, well, technically we can see your screen, but I can’t read a damn thing. Just
Jason (08:22):I just assume most people can see. So then paleontologist -
Jason (08:30):But that was mainly because the Jurassic Park
Jordan (08:32):Jurassic Park, I was going to say, I was like, I’m, it’s in here.
Jason (08:35):Of course, I mean, it was maybe not so much of the dead dinosaurs, but what if we could make live ones? That would be cool.
Jordan (08:43):And then you were going to find the Dino DNA. Yes.
Jason (08:45):Yes, and that’s going to be me in the Amber.
Yeah, right, of course.
Jason (08:48):I knew how to do all that stuff when I was very young. And -
Jordan (08:53):That is such a millennial, millennial goal right there. That’s ridiculous.
Jason (08:56):Have you watched all the Jurassic Parks? All of ‘em? Even the most recent one?
I might be able to still play the theme song on the piano, because I learned that when I was like eight years old.
That’s impressive. Yeah, I could not do that. I watched the most recent ones too. It was good. All of ‘em. Yeah. And then marine biologist, mainly because of sharks.
Ok, not because of the Seinfeld episode.
And my son got that from me because he doesn’t know what a marine biologist is, but he says he wants to be a shark scientist.
Shark Scientist. That’s perfect.
Jason (09:27):He just wants to see sharks.
He just calls it what it is. Yeah, shark scientist. That’s great.
So yeah, it’s awesome.
That was perfect.
What do you think it is about, mean? Obviously we became none of those things.
Nope. Swing and a miss.
But there’s something fun to reminisce on that, and you kind of dream about it. But I do think there are probably clear memories that many of us have from childhood that pertain to maybe moments of just pure enjoyment when we were doing things. And I’m curious if there’s stuff that comes to mind for you where you can recall things or games or activities or whatever that, you know, you just got immersed in that kind of brought you that sense of joy and happiness.
Jordan (10:21):It’s always games for me. It’s always games. Sometimes sports, but sometimes just games. Games that fit in a box and you pull ‘em out and play.
I know you’re a big board game guy.
A big board game nerd. I always get on you for nerding out on something. This is the area where I’m really with you on the nerd side of the house, so to speak. I think some of my fondest memories of my entire life are sitting down, or laying down rather, on the pier at the Chickahominy River here in the eastern part of Virginia, with my mom, and playing Scrabble. Playing Scrabble. That was our thing. It was the battle of the wits. And I remember since, I bet it was a little bit older than when kids learned to read, so maybe seven, eight years old, something like that, where I knew some words. I knew how to spell some things. And we started playing Scrabble then. And every time we went down to this Riverhouse, which house is a generous word for this little cabin that was passed down through the generations, but we sat on that pier and we played, and time stood still.
I mean, it could have thunderstormed, it could have been a hurricane. I would not have noticed. We just were in it and we were playing this game, and I was trying to get the right spots so I could get the triple word score and make sure I got that X on the triple letter score. And so strategic about it and just playing with her and I mean, those are some of my fondest memories of my entire life. And it wasn’t baseball, it wasn’t the World Series, but it didn’t need to be. It didn’t need to be because to me, being able to have the relational aspect of being with her and playing with her, but also just the competition aspect of, I’m going to beat this adult at this game because I can figure out a way and maybe she’ll let me win. I’ll never know. But I did occasionally win. And that was just a big thing to me. And it’s hard to describe because you’re like, it’s a board game, why is that important? But to an eight year old, nine year old, 10 year old kid, there’s some of my fondest memories and there’s something to that. There’s something to study there as to why was that so important.
Jason (12:55):Why do you think, or what, what about those moments or playing that game, if you were trying to put it into maybe a few words that kind of resonate to describe it, how would you?
I think games are, they’re just a microcosm of how society works. Sometimes. I think we overstep our bounds and we pursue this idea of complete freedom. Just complete, just do whatever you want, whenever you want, however you want with whoever you want.
Jason (13:36): Doesn’t work.
It’s such a mistake, right? But no game works, just like no, society works without rules, right? You sit down at a chess board and you say, okay, well this is a queen, and that’s a rook, and that’s a knight. And then you just move wherever the hell you want. Yeah. That’s not a game, right?
You need rules. Otherwise, there’s no game to be played. No mutual agreement on how we’re going to go about doing this. So I think part of it is just the microcosm of society boiled down to something that a child could understand of just like here, I take a turn, you take a turn, you form a word. The word has to exist in this certain dictionary. I mean, we were serious. We had the Scrabble dictionary.
Jason (14:19):Oh, yeah. That’s necessary.
We would look it up. I knew all my two letter words, I knew all my two letter words I had them memorized, right? So I knew that I could play, I could play Xi. Yeah, that’s a word in Scrabble. Yeah, Za, that’s a word in Scrabble. So I could play that, and I could play across and also connect it to this valuable word. Learning that and excelling at that just felt like a microcosm of growing up. It felt like development. It felt like my intelligence and my intrigue about life was just kind of brought to kind of activated through this singular game. And then of course, the relational aspect. I’m sitting there with my mom, it was just me and her, and was the whole world disappeared. And that was obviously a beautiful aspect of it. And I miss that. And I miss her. And she’s passed away. So the more now, it means even more to me now than it did then to think about those memories. But I think life, and now I’m thinking as an adult, life is really complex and hard and hard things happen, and it’s a lot of information to process. And so when you boil things down to just like, I’m just in this moment, in this game to do one thing, there’s a certain clarity that exists there that doesn’t exist in the midst of all the chaos that is life.
Jason (15:51): Yeah. Well, there’s a complexity that comes later in life where I think the concept you kind of brought up around the rules is actually really pertinent. Because I think I feel like I go through life sometimes. I’m like, I don’t know what the rules are, right? I don’t know what I’m doing here. What is supposed to happen? What are the rules to play by? It’s far less defined than it would seem, which when you’re a kid, you kind of feel like, man, all the adults know what’s going on. It’s like you become an adult and you have kids, and you’re like, I don’t know what the hell’s going on.
Oh, I know. And early on, you feel like you have a little bit of a script, right? Because when you’re a kid, it’s like, well, you just listen to your parents and you obey your parents. That’s your job. And those are the parameters. And I think that’s, honestly, that’s good parenting kids that actually know where the boundary lines are. I think those are the fortunate kids in the world that get to know where the boundary lines and where can I play? And then, you know, have a script. You go to school, you go to elementary, you go to middle, you go to high, and then whatever the next thing is for our generation there, it was a big push for college, maybe’s different from the next generation, the previous generation. But there was a little bit of a script. And I just remember 21 years old graduating school and feeling like I fell off the face of the earth. It was like, what’s the script? What’s next? And everybody was like, you decide. And I’m like, what me? I get to decide what’s next? No one told me this was coming. Right. It’s a scary thing.
Jason (17:33):Yeah. And then they hand you a baby next and like, oh, I didn’t figure out the other stuff yet.
Right, exactly. That whole, imagine you’re drowning and someone hands you a baby. But even before that, just getting into a job and now there’s all these different rules in a job. There’s bosses and there’s bosses’ bosses and there, there’s times you’re supposed to be certain places and there’s etiquette. And you’re not supposed to say that to those people, but you can say it to this group of people.
Jason (18:03):Keep that etiquette.
Jordan (18:05):I mean, it just sort of, I’m with you. But there’s a work culture that you don’t almost like kind of rules. They are in the work game. And you don’t know it.
Jason (18:17):Well, they are. They’re unwritten rules.
They’re unwritten, for sure. Yeah. There’s written and there’s mostly unwritten.
Well, and I think that’s the thing is if you think about what makes a game fun. Yeah. It actually is the rule. It’s the rule. There’s two things. Totally right? There’s a mutual aim, there’s a purpose to the game that we’ve agreed is the ultimate purpose. It’s like right — score -
It’s the how to win section of the rules when you open the book.
Which that’s the first place I flip the first place I play a new game. Yeah. How do you win? Okay, that sounds fun. Okay, now how do you play? What are the rules? Right? So you got to have that. There’s an agreed upon aim, and then you’ve got to have a set of rules that everyone’s agreed to play by as well. And when you think about it, when we’re kids, I mean, how freaking annoying was it when somebody started breaking the rules and cheating? You’re just get rid of the cheater, shun the cheater!
Or try to change the rules on you.
You’re like, you can’t change the rules,
And you’ve already played half the game, and you’ve applied the rules that you knew to get ahead, and the rules change. And now you’re behind.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But I think there’s a takeaway there. I mean when we’re thinking about the work context. What is the mutual aim? What are we trying to do here? What is our purpose? What are we aiming for collectively that we’ve agreed upon that we can get together and play the same game? Because if we’re not aiming for the same thing, we’re potentially all playing different games.
And I think the more you can take those unwritten rules and write ‘em down, the more clarity you’re giving the people that work for you. In our context, we run a company, obviously. Not everybody that’s listening runs a company, but the more you can either do that as a leader or maybe ask for that, or demand that from your leaders to take, Hey, all this unwritten sort of nuanced stuff. Let’s be clear about it. Let’s write it down. Let’s call it a mission. Let’s call it a vision, let’s call it values, let’s call it whatever, the rule book. Right? That’s so helpful. It gives people peace about like, oh, well, now I know what’s expected of me, what the rules are, what the aim is, the how to win portion is written down. Now I know how to act. I know how to perform in this context, and it helps me see the people I work with as my team, because now I know what winning is. That’s been defined for me. So I can rally these people together and we can go win. And that’s what makes a team a team. You. You’re not really a team if it’s just like, well, we just kind of show up to the same Zoom calls three times a week and hang around while someone talks -
What are we here for? It’a boring
And tells us all the things that they think are important, it’s kind of boring. It’s purposeless. Yeah. I’m just kind of biding my time, doing my thing, trying to keep my head down. I’m not really going after anything. And then that’s why work needs to be play. It needs to be a game and needs to have a way to win.
Well, I mean, I know we both like sports and March Madness has been going on, but it’s wild to think about what’s really going on in a basketball game or in a baseball game. I mean, people go nuts when somebody scores a basket and you’re like, what the heck is that about humans? You put a ball ‑l
Jordan (21:58):You put a ball into a metal ring with the nylon hoop or the nylon net hanging from the bottom of it. Right? That’s all you did.
Why is it so exciting to us?
Because we know all the work that was put in. We know all the strategy that was put in. We know, and we also identify with a certain team because we have nostalgia, we have memories, and we know that we either went to that school or our parents or whatever, cheered for that team. And so we associate with that. But I think it’s because it’s hard. It’s hard to do. And so when you see people achieve things that are really hard to do, you cheer for that. It’s almost like just the human condition is just like life’s hard. And when you have a big win, or any one of us has a big win, it’s like, yes!
It’s such a crazy perfect metaphor though, when you think about it, it’s like they’re literally aiming for a basket. They’re aiming something towards a basket, in the same way that we kind of metaphorically aim towards a goal, whatever it is. Right. And so I, I feel like it kind of indicates that there’s something sort of intrinsically in us as human beings. It’s like we aspire to, or we admire people aiming for a high goal that requires some difficulty. And we see the maybe potential of human beings in that because we admire what it is that they’re doing, but it doesn’t have to live at that level alone. We also can have goals. We can also aim for things and strive to achieve in similar fashions.
Yeah, sports, it is just the easy, it’s the easiest place to see the work. You know? See the fitness of the athlete, for example. You see that, I mean, you see them run up and down the court, and if you’ve played any basketball or if you ever like, yeah, I’m just going to use basketball, for example. But yeah, we’re in our late thirties, which is crazy to say out loud, but we’re in our late thirties. I know from experience, if I show up on a basketball court and I run up and down the court, I know seven or eight times I’m winded, I’m winded. These guys are running up down the court hundreds of times, sometimes at a full sprint, sometimes at a jog. And then I’ve got a guard, a guy, and I got to jump and I got to rebound, it flies out of bounds and I gotta grab the ball.
I got to throw it at some guy’s legs so that it bounces off. And then it’s our ball. There’s, it’s just chaos for 40 minutes, maybe longer if you’re professional. So you know from watching that, and then from your own experience, like, oh my gosh, the work that was put in to get even one’s body in shape enough to do the thing that’s being done is insane. And then the scrupulous work that a coach put in to figure out the X and Os and to figure out how to, or we’re going to set a screen and we’re going to run off of that, and then that guy’s going to come off the screen and go towards the basket and we’re going to pass to him at the, all of that. So it’s just clear with sports. So it’s just like, oh, I can see the work that was put in, and I can see what success looks like because the ball goes through the basket and the game ends since somebody wins and somebody loses.
And business is, it’s harder to see all of that, right? Yeah. It’s harder to see because most of our challenges in business, as we’re sitting here typing away at our computers, it’s not a physical challenge. We don’t have to be in incredible shape to do the thing that we do, but we do have to have an incredible amount of resilience. We do have to be able to bounce back. We do have to be able to lose and learn from the loss and change our tactics and try again. We have to have the courage to try new things. We have to have the courage to fail and own that and own up to that and say, Hey, that was me. That was my idea. It didn’t work. Right? Yeah. There’s different sort of challenges that we face in business than what’s faced in sports, but it’s no different. It’s just less obvious. Right? Yeah. Because it’s still a challenge.
A challenge is a challenge whether small or large. And yeah, it’s really interesting because this concept of flow, I know you and I have talked about that a little bit before, not on the podcast, I don’t think. The most common analogy when you hear scientists talk about flow is athletes. And so the concept of flow is where you become so immersed in an activity that basically you lose sense of time and space and you’re just in it. Totally. But it requires, so the scientists that study this stuff and unpacked it, it requires having a goal. So you actually can’t experience this sense of flow if you’re not aiming for something. So it requires that, that’s why athletes often are kind of ones that experience this, right? Greatly because they have a very clear goal.
The goal is so obvious.
And there’s a challenge. So that’s another part of it that’s required, is a sense of challenge. So it’s like something that’s just beyond your ability. So it stretches you a little bit, but it’s not so far beyond that you can’t actually accomplish the thing. And so that’s part of it. And then the other part coming back to something we were talking about in the conversation is rules. You have to understand how to do the thing right before you, so it can’t be a total mystery to you. How am I going to achieve this goal? I have no idea. It has to be something that you actually know how to do it, you know the the rules, you know how to play it. And so there’s that sense of, I know the rules, I know how to play it. There’s a challenge and there’s a specific aim that I’m going for.
And it’s crazy. The sort of positive benefits that they found that this flow experience creates. I was actually talking to a Chief People Officer that we’re friends with recently, and I was just interviewing her about some other stuff. But I was talking about, Hey, what are some things that your companies focus on this year surrounding the employee experience is something that I’m thinking about a lot these days. And one of the things she described very explicitly was trying to make space for employees to have more flow experiences in their work. And I was like, that’s crazy. I’ve never even heard a company talk about it that explicitly. But they were kind of onto this idea of, well, we have to design the work experience in such a way that people can feel these things that create this really good positive feedback loop around kind of experiencing work as play. And I think, I feel like it’s fair to call that play because I think those flow experiences seemingly arise out of play experiences or what we might describe as play.
Yeah. I don’t think there’s much difference. I really don’t. Yeah, sure. Do kids get paid for playing games? No. And we get paid for work. Yes. That’s the fundamental difference between the two. But the same is true. Businesses exist to make money. That’s why they exist. Someone had an idea and they thought, I should build this product, or I should launch this service and people will pay for that service. And because they pay for that service or product, we will make money. That’s why it started. There was a clear goal in mind and there was a clear path to that goal. And ideally the business owner or the business founder or whatever knew how to do it or had an idea exactly about how to accomplish the goal. It’s no different than when one of my kids, whether it’s my seven-year-old or my ten-year-old or my five-year-old, they pull out a board game and they’re like, let’s play.
They got the same thing in mind. They’re not thinking, let’s play. I hope you win, right? Let’s play. I’m going to win. Right? That’s why they’re playing. They want to set up, they also spend time with me. So just, I don’t want to ignore that aspect. There is a kind of communal aspect to this, but they want to achieve something that — they’re feeling as though, Hey, I want to accomplish something today, so I’m going to blow out this game. I’m going to play with my dad and my mom, or both or whatever, and I’m going to try to beat them. I’m going to try to win. There’s no difference. And we started this company that we started Fringe, and where’s our goal? Hey, we got an idea. Nobody’s doing this, right? We’ll get out there. We’ll own the category. We’ll win. And winning means different things. It’s owning a category, it’s having a platform. It’s making money, it’s hiring people. A lot of things that you can dump into the category of what does winning look like. But in the end, we just wanted to win. We just wanted to win at a game. There’s no difference at all.
Jason (31:22):We got beat up by a few games before that.
Jordan (31:24):Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah, totally. And it depends on your personality, but sometimes the more you lose a game, the more you want to play it.
So I find the idea of thinking about our kids pulling out that board game, wanting to play. One, not only do I resonate with that and how that fuels and experiences I had when I was a kid, but that same sense of can we capture some of that feeling and drive and kind of bring it into our work context where it’s like, yeah, I want to do it for the sake of doing it. I mean there’s a communal aspect, like you said. And yeah, it feels like in play there’s a relational aspect to all of it at some level. Because you’re not going to just mean, there’s very few things that you play sustained by yourself for a long period of time that are as enjoyable as things that you can play with others. And so I think it’s just a really cool idea to think about how do we bring that into the way that we approach our work or think about our work.
I think that sounds like the next episode of How People Work. Does it? I think it’s what it sounds like to me. So let’s wrap up. Let’s end this episode. Let’s get to the next one next week. But before we finish, you need to give me a word of the week for next week so I can be prepared for this.
Jason (32:49):I do. So the word of the week is going to be recuse.
Recuse. All right. I’m like you 90% sure I know what the definition of that exactly is. I will Google it before we get started on recording next week. But thank you so much for listening to how people work. I feel like we ask ourselves one or two questions this week, and then we talk for half an hour. So sometimes that happens that way. Hope you enjoyed listening. If you want to reach out to us, get on LinkedIn, find Jason Murray, find me, Jordan Peace, send us a question. We’ve had some folks do that already, which we really appreciate. It helps prompt us in terms of questions to ask each other, or even topics for unique episodes that we’ve yet to record. So please do reach out if you get a chance to do so. Thank you so much for listening. Bye-bye.