Employers and people leaders across industries are facing the same challenge at work.
How do you lead a diverse workforce well?
For the first time in history, there are five different generations in the workplace — Silent, Boomer, Gen X, Millennial, and Gen Z. And each generation has a fundamentally different experience of the world, leading to competing expectations of the employer.
How can leaders demonstrate care and respect for all of their employees when they experience the same work environment differently?
In this episode of How People Work, Jordan and Jason discuss how leaders can meet the competing needs of today’s employees without neglecting any one group. They’ll answer questions like:
- How do our employees want to be recognized?
- What incentives will motivate each generation?
- How do employees define wellbeing and why does that matter?
Key ideas and highlights
- Currently, Millennials and Gen Z make up 35% and 7% of the workforce
- By 2030, Millennials and Gen Z will make up over two-thirds of the workforce
- Rewards and recognition programs need to be tailored to the different expectations of each generation
- Showing appreciation to a Millennial in the same you would you show appreciation to a Boomer is likely to offend rather than inspire that employee
- The experience of the world is fundamentally different for each generation.
- Employers who aren’t aware of these differences will struggle to acquire and retain top talent.
“Companies are grossly unprepared to handle the generational shifts about to take place over the next 5 years. The experience of the world is fundamentally different for each generation.”
— Jason Murray
Word of the day
- Ameliorate — said @ 33:43 ✅
- 0:00 Intro
- 1:18 What are the five generations in the workforce?
- 3:06 What the workforce will look like by 2030
- 3:56 The radically different expectations each generation has for their employer
- 5:10 Why many recognition programs do more harm than good
- 7:16 What each generation has in common at work
- 17:18 How to lead all 5 generations well
- 22:50 What happens when you view work as the enemy
- 24:18 Why “work-life balance” is a ridiculous false dichotomy
- 26:30 What we stand to gain if we think of work as play
- 27:30 What work, camping, and sports have in common
- 29:05 What language trips up leaders and silences employees?
- 33:28 How leading out of fear vs. trust will inform your talent strategy
Jason Murray 0:00
Well, welcome back to the how people work Podcast. I’m Jason Murray, I’m here with my co host and co founder of fringe Jordan Peace. Hey there. And on this podcast, we talk about the intersection of how humans work as individuals and how they apply themselves to work. And hopefully that helps us to be more insightful, compassionate, compelling leaders of people and company builders.
And so today, we’re continuing some of the themes that came out of our first episode, where we talked a little bit about our genesis story, around what is Fringe, how we got started, a little bit of our backstory, and even why we’re passionate about some of these topics. And so I think the the sort of overarching premise, if you will, that might be helpful for people to understand, that I think will be common, but we want to dig into this in a little bit more detail is just how are the various generations out there in the workforce, impacting the way that work is getting done impacting the way that generations are interacting with their employers? And what does that relationship look like? And I use that word relationship very intentionally here —so pop quiz, surprise, to start us off.
Jordan Peace 1:20
Thank you for that. Appreciate it.
Jason Murray 1:22
Can you name the generations that are in the workforce today?
Jordan Peace 1:26
I think so. We got the Baby Boomers. The Gen Xers. Which I refer to as the baby boomer carbon copies. Which is probably not fair. Then Gen Y or millennial? Yeah, two names for our generation. And then the Gen z’s. Okay, I miss somebody. That’s four of them.
Jason Murray 1:52
You got some stragglers in the Silent Generation. Bless their hearts if they’re still working.
Jordan Peace 2:01
Yeah, I didn’t. I never thought about that.
Jason Murray 2:05
But there are some that are still out there in the workforce.
Jordan Peace 2:10
I just saw a story today about a great grandmother got her master’s degree at 87 years old. I’m like, Yeah, that’s awesome.
Jason Murray 2:18
Apparently, they’re so silent. You forgot about apparently. So we got the generations here. That’s probably common knowledge to most of us, whoever that last one may be. It’s not common to me. One of the things I think would be really interesting, though, is to talk about, you know, especially in the workplace, is: How are we starting to experience some of the different expectations of these generations who are coming into the workforce? And in particular, what are the expectations of millennials and Gen Z?
Millennials already make up 35% of the workforce, and Gen Z currently stands at about 7% to 10%. What I think is actually staggering is by 2025, over 30% of the workforce is estimated to be Gen Z. And so we’re about to see a massive change in the number of employees represented in the workforce by Gen Z. And so what that means then is s of the workforce by 2030 is going to be millennials and Gen Z. And so I think it’s of especial importance to talk about what’s going on with those generations. So just as you’ve been in the business, and I’ve been working in this space, what are some of the things that you’ve noticed along the way around expectations of these different generations?
Jordan Peace 4:03
Yeah, I think one of the things that stood out to me the more we we not only observe but also research and even write about this and podcast about this an interview other folks about this, I remember I interviewed a cultural anthropologist, one time, it was a fascinating interview and learned a lot from that conversation. But what you find is that human beings across generations, much of what they want, at their core, is the same. The way they want that communicated or delivered or who they want that message from changes dramatically across generations, right.
And then sometimes there’s things that just completely pop up for a new generation. They have new needs, new desires that just mostly because of technology advances in the world that either that opportunity or that thing just wasn’t vailable in the past, but is as an example of something that is commonplace, right? Everybody wants to feel seen and heard, everybody wants to feel appreciated at work, right? That appreciation in, let’s say the workplace 30 years ago, probably would have come to the form of something transactional, when it comes to the form of a physical award, probably a plaque, something that was actually in and of itself expensive and heavy, right? A thing that said, This person is valuable, they achieved something, they bettered their peers, they’re the best of, of whatever they are. And then of course, through income, right through a through a bonus or promotion, which is still commonplace to this day.
If you were to give a plaque to a millennial, right, they would immediately drop it in the trash can, right on their way out the door, like how they would actually be offended. Like, how dare you think that all this work I put in to separate myself and to do something great, and to contribute to the company. And you thought I wanted a piece of metal with something engraved on it? I mean, the thought the thoughtfulness is still there, the idea of just trying to say, hey, we see you, you’ve done a great job. But the perspective has come in, that’s just a, it’s just the language that you’re speaking, the heart of the matter is, I want to feel appreciated, right? In both generations. So it’s just really interesting that like, sometimes the, you know, at the very core, it’s nothing’s really changed all that much. But if I say it in the wrong language, you actually offend more than you do good. Show what you want to show. Yeah, so just just as a highlight, but I think that’s a lot of what I’ve learned is, when you get into conversations with people in our parents’ generations, you ask them about their experience at work, their experience is very different. But if you dig into what they wanted to experience, what the words are that they wanted to hear from their boss, what they wish it would have been like, or the things that were great about their work with. A lot of that stuff turned out to be like, oh, yeah, I feel the same way. Yeah, yeah. No, like, I totally see that.
Jason Murray 7:14
Right, well, I think that’s a really important distinction there because I think it speaks to things that I think we believe to be true, which is that humans are, have intrinsic value to them. Humans have intrinsic needs that are, you know, true about just who we are as people, regardless of generation. And so there are things generationally in our experience of just world events, and things of that nature that have shaped who we are and how we go about and kind of operate in the world. But at the same time, yeah, like that desire for appreciation and, you know, respect and whatever the case may be. But I think it’s, it’s interesting. And it might be helpful, even if we just share some of our own experiences of our parents maybe and what were there maybe are some really notable differences is what their expectation of their employer was, because I would say, with my parents, in particular, while they may have desired to have those things, they never expected it from their employer. And so although they might have appreciated having, you know, more recognition in that fashion from managers and supervisors, I think, you know, for my parents, it was really like, I go to work to provide for my family. It’s very transactional, because they give me a paycheck. And I give them labor. And that’s all I’m asking for. Or that’s all I expect from them. And anything more than that is like, that’s great. It’s kind of icing on the cake. And I think what’s changed, at least in my own experience that I found was like, Well, I don’t want that. You know, and I think that’s what a lot of folks in our generation, you know, as millennials have seen, and part of what’s kind of creating that, you know, reaction that maybe we’re seeing in the workforce now,
Jordan Peace 9:08
I think it comes down to how people are raised. If you’re raised by folks that are coming out of, you know, the Depression era, the expecation is to just store away everything you have, be grateful for what little you do have if you have a job, hold on to that thing with all your mind, do whatever you’re asking. And then they raise the baby boomers, they raised this generation of people, and they tell them about how hard things where they tell them about how fortunate they are to have the oppo rtunities that they have. And I think it just creates a situation where the message is: Go to work. Keep your head down, keep your mouth shut, do what you’re told, right? And don’t have a lot of needs, right? I mean, that was the other thing. It’s like, just the emotional availability of parents then versus, like, what we experienced probably being raised and what our children are experienced being raised. Like, and again, speaking in generalities, but that’s what we’re doing in this point in this episode, right? We are just going to be much more emotionally available. And so what is the message that my parents were very emotionally available to me growing up, and so the message that taught me was, I’m allowed to have needs, I’m allowed to want things I’m allowed to be upset, I’m allowed to not feel like the relationship’s okay, and want to kind of restore that, whatever. But if you’re not growing up in a situation where that’s being promoted, you’re not gonna go to work and expect some person that’s not even your family, to sit down with you and go, “You seem to really having a really hard day, what can we do to help you?” You expect to hear, “Shut up and do your job”. Right. So it’s, it’s, it’s not so much only the workplace, the workplace is kind of an outpouring of I think, what happens in the home. And that, and that’s what’s been passed down to the, through the generations is that there’s just more emotional availability, more of a relational aspect, between parent and child that is more around feelings, right? And so therefore, when you go to work, and you have this relationships, it’s not meant to be parental, but you do hear people borrow that language, when they talk about the workplace, and they talk about, then they shouldn’t, but they talk about employees as kids, right, you hear that all the time. And and I think the reason why that language is being borrowed is because people drag that in to the workplace and it affects their expectations of who their employer is and who they’re going to be.
Jason Murray 12:02
Well, I think it’s really important that we not just gloss over the fact that there are these generations, and there are these differences, too, because I think the the time in history that we’re living in right now is one of the most unique that we’ve ever seen. So there’s never been a time in human history where there’s been literally five generations of human beings that may be working together in the same place. That’s never happened before. And then layer on top of that, the fact that we’re living literally in the fastest technological transformation that’s ever happened in human history over the last 20 years. So we’ve got both of these things going on at the same time. It’s really hard to overstate how impactful that is to what people expect from work, how they think work should happen, what companies are trying to do. And so, you know, this isn’t like, you know, hey, let’s just kind of like make this generation happy and move on. I think it’s actually we really have to fundamentally look at how are companies designed to enable people to work in a good way. And that’s something we talked about in the last episode is this notion that work is good. Like, we think it’s a good thing for people to have that. And so it means that we really have to rethink how companies are designed to enable people to work effectively.
Jordan Peace 13:27
Yeah, no, we really do. I mean, your point about technology, it actually just made me think about somebody sent me on YouTube was like the first TV commercial ever for Microsoft Excel. I don’t know if you’ve seen that. It’s hilarious that the TV commercial is showing this person that has built a spreadsheet, and they drag a group of cells over to the right, and the formula gets applied into the future. And they’re like in an elevator, and everyone is just like — brains out the back of their skull! Like, what just happened? It just makes me think like, that wasn’t that long ago, right. And if you had to build a spreadsheet, you were going to be working on that thing for weeks. Right, you know, like just on this one thing for this one meeting to give that one report if you weren’t doing it on paper if you weren’t doing it on paper, right. And before that it was done on paper. And now, the technology is at a place where I would expect someone to do that same work that took that person weeks, 30 years ago, to be able to get it done in a couple of hours, and then go do another 40 tasks today. Right? And the technology allows it right. But as our brain chemistry caught up to the fact that we can achieve that much in one day. And so it’s just interesting is we’re fighting against, not against but we’re fighting alongside technology’s changing generational expectations, what a workday should look like what you can accomplish and it worked. A Right, right. And I think if I would have started my career, which I didn’t, but if I would have started my career 30 years ago, and I’m still in that career now, I would feel like what, like, I’m expected to do so much in one day, and I’m willing, because I’m of the generation, I’m gonna do whatever you tell me to do. I’m gonna hustle, I’m going to work hard, right? And but I’m playing catch up all the time. Whereas I think sometimes, you know, if I could raise a criticism of our own generation, we’ve become so efficient at doing things that sometimes we can put in two or three hours of work, and we sit back and go, “I’ve accomplished kind of a lot today”. I’m probably good, right? Like, and you kind of see that reflected in this tension between like, you know, those of an older generation, just like, you guys don’t even work.
Now in the younger generations, like, actually, we’re achieving a whole lot, right? We’re just doing it more efficiently. And it’s, it’s probably blowing your mind a little bit, but like, how do we learn from each other in the right, you know, like, how do we not just go well, they’re old and wrong. And we’re young and right. Or if you’re sitting on the other, and we’re kind of sitting in the middle? You know, the two of us? Yeah, or go, “All those young lazy people, they don’t know how to put in an honest day’s work.” Right? And why don’t they do it? Like, neither one is correct, really. And I think, you know, what’s sad to me about the workplace is it seems like it’s gotten, it’s gotten to a place where there’s not a lot of knowledge sharing, and I would even use the word like wisdom sharing between the generations. You know, it just I think there’s not a lot of respect given to the knowledge and experience of those that have gone before. And there’s also not a lot of patience and understanding given to the younger generations of maybe you’re not actually just worthless and lazier.
I think you can’t ignore that tension in this conversation, because I think it’s one of the good reasons to talk about it, is to help open the conversation of every generation has something to offer. And the other side of the coin, of course, we’re going to get to is, if you’re an employer, you’ve got to think about how do I employ well, all five of these generations? And how do I treat them really well? How do I have proper expectations for them?
Jason Murray 17:31
That is just such a huge challenge. I think that understanding between generations is so important, because as we talked about that shift that’s happening over the next five years, I think companies are just grossly unprepared for what’s happening. And some of that I think, is, you know, let’s say the arrogance of maybe older millennials, like us that are kind of on the cusp of like Gen X. And then those older generations that are frankly, the ones that are running companies, for the most part, yeah, that call the shots.
Those are the ones that, you know, tend to — even when they’re trying to be empathetic — lack the full understanding of how different the experience of the world is for that new generation. And so, I was thinking it’d be fun to even think about, like, some of the examples because for one, for instance, like cellphones, you know, we’re like, we remember a time in our lives. I’m 38, then that was not commonplace. Like, I got a cell phone my first year in college, it was a flip phone, which I thought was pretty damn. The green backlit screen. You know, and you had to like press like 999 buttons to like, send one text message and so you just didn’t send text messages. It was too difficult. That was kind of the reality versus you know, when I look at what Gen Z is today, yeah, like my daughter is in Gen Z. So Gen Z is anyone who’s ages 10 to 25 right now. And so her familiarity with like, a cell phone texting, like how you interact with that technology is just so different from what I experienced.
Jordan Peace 19:37
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think, you know, if you’re employing people of these different generations, that’s where the serious challenge comes in. Because you have to have the wisdom to understand what are the common threads that span across, all generations, right? If you don’t find those, you drive yourself crazy, trying to contextualize every single thing you’re doing based on how old people are, what their experience has been, and so forth, right? You have to personalize to some extent. But if you spend 100% of your time trying to personalize messages, you’ll just go insane. Like, you’ve got to find ways to communicate, and you’ve got to find the heart of the matter. And so, you know, I think one of the things, you know, we talked about appreciation, you know, but I think another thing is just people want, people want to understand how what they do, it doesn’t matter if they’re 55 years old, or they’re 22 years old, they want to understand what how does what I do contribute to the greater cause of the company, right? That is not a new idea.
The new idea is that the causes, social and otherwise, that a company stands for, ought to be aligned with what I stand for, right? That is a very younger generation thing. I don’t think the older generations care about that whatsoever, because their identity is not associated with the company nearly as tightly and there all sorts of reasons for that. That’s another episode, I think, right around how we go about our society and navigate the world. But everybody wants to feel like their job matters. And I think that one of the challenges is that for the older generations that are not in the leadership role, right? That are in you know, that VP level, manager level, whatever it is, they can easily feel like the world’s kind of passing me by, I’m just sort of like hanging out waiting for retirement, I’m just trying to get to the finish line, I’m not really vital to this company anymore. And harkening back to this idea of wisdom transfer, there’s just stuff that you cannot learn in a book, you can’t even learn through your first four or 5, 10 years in your career that we need to be having more mentorship type of relationships between the older and younger generations, so that that stuff can get passed through so that we don’t grow businesses where you’re generalizing. Well, we don’t actually learn how to do satisfying work, we don’t learn how to hustle to the point of, “Wow, I worked really, really hard this week.” And like, and I have this clear accomplishment in front of me.
We were just talking to somebody before we started recording, who said he feels guilty when working too hard. Like what Boomer would have ever said, “I feel guilty working too hard”. Right? Like, that’s interesting. It and like, can you work too hard? Absolutely. Right. You absolutely can you can work yourself into the ground. But I think this belief has come to bear in our generation, and perhaps the younger generations that work is the enemy and I just need to work as little as possible so that I can go live. And it’s just missing the fact that the living that you plan to do will actually be far less satisfying. If you don’t strive and work really hard to feel like you actually earned the living and you actually like need the rest and you need the restoration that comes with the time off because you gave it all you had when you were working. That stuff just needs to get talked about between these generations.
Jason Murray 24:51
Well, and and it’s really fascinating. So Marcus Buckingham talks about this in his book “Nine Lies About Work”. And, you know, we talked about this concept too, but basically the false dichotomy of work life balance, because I think it’s just ridiculous because like you said, work-life balance sets up this, you know, you know, it puts work and life at odds with one another, like, yeah, work is negative, right? And we want to do as little of it as possible so that we can get around to our living, right, because life is where all the good stuff happens. And it’s actually not true about how humans are wired. Yeah, that some of the most fulfilling things that we can do are intimately integrally tied into the work that we do. And so, you know, psychologists talk about this concept of “flow”. You know, when you get into those states of like, I’m doing work that I love, you lose track of time, and it doesn’t even feel like work. I mean, you might feel like, Hey, I worked hard, but it wasn’t draining, or it wasn’t exhausting, it was actually highly energizing. And so finding ways to create more of that is actually going to be positive for everyone.
Jordan Peace 26:01
Yeah, I mean, it’s really funny that we believe that false dichotomy because if you think about how we play, they set up competitive games with rules that they can lose, right? And they have to exert themselves. And they have to think really hard. And even think about camping! People criticize camping, and I get why they do, but people put themselves out of the home that they have with running water and electricity, and intentionally make life a lot harder to go in the woods and set up a tent and sleep with wild animals. That’s work. But it’s satisfying, because you wake up in the morning, and you’re like, I just slept out in the wilderness. Like, I don’t need all this house and electricity and stuff. Like I’m tough. There’s something really cool about that. And so, like, why do we believe that work is bad when all we end up doing when we’re not working is setting up ways for us to work?
Jason Murray 27:02
Yeah. Maybe that’s it? Maybe that’s an interesting distinction is, you know, previous generations never expected work to feel like play, right? But sure, there’s maybe more of a desire that’s being expressed for that to be true. Because if you think about kids, like play is how you explore the world and play’s, how you engage with things that are new or fun, or it’s sort of how you learn. Yeah. And so like, why wouldn’t we want work to feel more like play, and then it becomes this thing that’s fully integrated into your life. Because the problem with that dichotomies, when you set it up is, you know, these two things that are at odds with one another. I mean, think about how much time you have to spend at work, like it’s unavoidable, unless you’ve got some giant trust fund.
Jordan Peace 27:48
But like, I mean, we had clients that were trust fund kids and how happy were those people? Yeah, mostly miserable?
Jason Murray 27:59
Because it tells you something. Yeah. about human nature. Yeah. Which is we need responsibility for something because the responsibility gives us purpose. And that purpose is what actually gives us satisfaction. So if we don’t have a purpose to strive for, which is, I think, the appeal of games, right? We set up these competitive games, because what are we doing, we’re aiming for a goal, collectively. And it’s a whole hell of a lot of fun when you’re aiming for a goal collectively. And so that’s more or less what we should be in business. Right. And so, I mean, it’d be really interesting to talk about, you know, we haven’t figured all this stuff out. That’s why we’re talking about it. But what are some of the things that we’ve been trying around here at Fringe that you feel like, you know, we’ve seen some success with?
Jordan Peace 28:46
Gosh, I mean, just in terms of kind of, like gamifying, the work experience?
Jason Murray 28:52
In the last episode, you talked a little bit about, you know, the the different experience people have expressed when they’ve come to work here. And so it’s not to, you know, self congratulate ourselves on what we’ve built here. I’ve actually found it quite surprising. Yeah, you know, how much people have emoted about that experience? Because, again, you know, you and I didn’t have a ton of, you know, corporate experience, or we didn’t work at startups, before buying companies or small companies, we kind of just did solopreneur things and started a small company that is the two of us. And so I don’t think we had expectations. So for me, it’s actually been more surprising, but it feels like there’s some things that we’re doing that seemed to be working.
Jordan Peace 29:35
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think a lot of its cultural, right. I think a lot of it is is how you talk about people, right? I think it’s the words you use, right? So I think they’re one of the biggest problems like is when we play, right when we go we get on the team and we play a game. It’s all very egalitarian. And I’m not saying that that’s how the workplace should be. You absolutely need authority and you actually need leaders and so forth. However, you, you don’t have to talk down to people, right? You don’t have to call yourself, the person’s boss all the time, you could say we work together, you don’t have to say I’m this many levels up or down. Like it’s some of the language that I think is problematic. I don’t care what generation you’re in, that it’s just not the right way to approach somebody and say, Hey, we’re all human beings, we’re all here to work. We’re all here to achieve a goal. Like, let’s go get this done and immediately sets up a situation where, because I’m me, and you’re you, we’re going to do it my way, my opinion is just the one that just silences people, right? Because like that, you’re constantly reminding people that they’re not important as you are, which is, first of all, not true from a human level. But secondly, it just really stifles the creativity in the room. And I think prevents people from having that courage. Say, I got an idea. Like, it’s my first week, and I’m 22 years old, and I’m fresh out of school, and I have an idea. And my idea might be terrible, but it might be the thing that takes your company to the next level. Right? And you will not hear it. Unless you show that humility in that respect. Yeah. And so I think we’ve, I think we’ve just set up a place where, and again, I want to pat myself on the back or you or anybody else, but it’s there’s a humility and leadership that I think brings everybody’s voice to bear. I think the other thing that we’ve done is, I think we’ve allowed people to work in the way that they need to work based on their their situation, right? Like if they’re, they’re so low at home. And that’s, you know, they get distracted that you know, or they’re, they can’t focus, they need to come into the office, we have that available, they can do that they can be engaged that way. If they’re, like you and me with a bunch of kids at home, it’s like, we need to escape we got to get here. But occasionally, it’s like, I gotta just like lock myself in a room. And so I was like, All right, like having those options available. And being able to provide different, you know, means for people I think has been big. I think, again, that’s a generally generational experience as well, because you need different things when you’re 25, than you do when you’re 35 and 45. And 55. In your workplace, and then your environment and, and also the time, right? Like, I don’t mind any of our employees hearing that, like every what is it? Wednesday, I leave at three o’clock, I go home, I grab my daughter, I take her to gymnastics where they’re from 430 to six. A lot of times I’ll sit and watch or sometimes I’ll do a little work in the car, sometimes a mix of both, right? But then again, I’m here at 10 o’clock at night, right doing this because this is play, right? For me, this is fun, but it’s you know, it’s also accountants work, right? And so does that flexibility, too. You know, work when you want to work and play when you want to play, like there’s a trust that you give over. And not everybody can handle that trust, right. And that’s why you got to be first, really careful about who you hire. And also, like not try to hold on to people that you don’t think can actually mature quickly handle the trust. What if you can trust people with that time and give them that freedom? It’s just a beautiful thing, because they appreciate so they appreciate it so, so much, right? And it really elicits a whole lot of loyalty and respect and goodwill between the two parties. Yes. I mean, I could go on about a lot of things that we’ve done, I think ameliorates the traditional, you know, corporate model.
Jason Murray 33:46
Everyone catch that? I was just wondering if I was gonna have to tip you off there. Give you a little help on that one. Yeah, I think that the trust piece really resonates with me. Because, you know, in my mind, I like to think about, you know, is there is there a critical lever that makes a lot of other things work? Right. So there’s lots of tactics that you can implement to make things work in your company, you know, flexible work schedules, yada, yada, yada, the benefits that you provide all of these kinds of things that, you know, help communicate something, but it really starts I think, with that trust, it’s like the reciprocity that comes from, you know, organization leaders saying to their people, Hey, I trust you to you understand the job. And just, you work when you need, like, you don’t necessarily have the hours lto get it done.
Well I mean, as someone who’s an introvert, and I know you’re an extrovert, even like the experience of flexibility of workplaces. It’s like, there are some days where I’m just like, I’d prefer to work at home, even with the kids running around downstairs because like, I just need to focus I need that time like there. Do something about that. And like, I don’t think twice about it, because there is that flexibility that actually enables the work to happen in the way that it needs to happen. And so I think that’s a really powerful thing, if we can design that experience for all employees, and it has to be done with a lot of intention.
Jordan Peace 35:18
Well I think the quality of your employees is more important than ever. Because if you’re going to lead from a standpoint of trust, that’s a very different thing from leading out of fear. Because you can drive people that are not actually that great of an employee through fear to just do the job, right. And you probably could get further with less talented people, if you’re leading out of fear, not really an enjoyable way to lead not an enjoyable thing for the people working for you. But from an effectiveness standpoint, you probably could get more out of less so to speak. But if you’re going to lead out of trust, you need not only talented people, but mature people and self motivated people. And people that don’t need somebody cuz you can’t have somebody looking over their shoulder all the time, literally physically. So that it really changes I think, how you need to look at the talent pool.
Jason Murray 36:13
I think that’s a great question. In some respects a good place to wrap up on this idea. Are you driving people out of fear? Or are you leading out of trust? And I think there’s a lot of things that you could answer about your company based on, you know, the way that you would respond to that question.
Well, we have a long standing tradition on this show, now that we’re on the second episode here. Where I do pick a word, somewhat at random.
Jordan Peace 36:40
The word today was ameliorate if you didn’t listen to the first episode. That’s why Jason kind of freaked out when I said the word ameliorate earlier it was the secret word of the day.
Jason Murray 36:51
And it was well placed and well used. And accurate. Yes, I can attest to that fact. So I did come up with the word of today myself and didn’t use Google to find this one. So our word of today that will be woven into the conversation in the next episode is cacophony.
Jordan Peace 37:11
Wow. You’re upping the ante immediately from ameliorate to cacophony.
Jason Murray 37:18
I know how much you love words, and I do I do this and I’m a little bit but it’s gonna be fun. Yes,
Jordan Peace 37:22
let’s do it. Thanks, everybody, for listening episode two of how people work. We’re really enjoying this. I hope you’re really enjoying this, and we’ll see you on the next one. Bye bye bye.